Past, Present & Future Interview Series: Part One, Past

I am fortunate to have always been surrounded by strong female and male family members and to have been raised in an environment where I was encouraged to stand up for myself and work hard to achieve my goals. Growing up, I remember playing with micro-machine toy cars with my brother (but preferred playing with dolls), shooting hoops on an all boys CYO basketball team and studying hard to get good grades in co-ed classes. There was never a question that I would go to college and then start a career. Most importantly, there was never a time I did not think I could do something because I was born female. I was and am extremely fortunate.

But there was a time, not so long ago when females did not have the same rights and privileges that women currently have. Even in the year 2015, gender equality is a work in progress, but I think people sometimes forget how far we have come in the past fifty years and what it was actually like for working-women to fight the fight and start the change process that we now benefit from today. I have created a three part (Past, Present and Future) interview series that explores the working world of three professional women, all with very different experiences.

It was not until I interviewed Marlene that I realized how lucky my generation is that we had women who stood up for equality in the work place and said enough is enough when it came to unfair treatment and harassment in the workplace. Marlene is one of the women that helped change the way that females were treated in organizations and I cannot thank her and the other women enough for helping pave the way. Now it is our generation’s turn to finish the fight and create gender equality in the work place once and for all.

I would like to introduce you to Marlene, a retired Civil Engineering Professional. Marlene worked for a transportation agency from 1972 through 2004 in a variety of technical positions and was kind enough to let me interview her and ask all kinds of probing and personal questions.

Katie: Did you experience gender inequality when growing up in the 1950’s? How did you feel?

Marlene: At a very young age, I vividly remember asking my mom why my storybooks always said "he" and not "she." My mom told me that the authors just said “he” but it also included “she.” I remember thinking that it was odd that my books never said “she.”

I can remember being outraged when I discovered that women weren't being treated equal to men and I must have been in my teens at this point. My mom told me that women had only been allowed to vote a year before she was born which was in 1920. I found it hard to understand why women weren’t always allowed to vote.

In high school I had an opportunity to take an elective course before graduating. I wanted to take mechanical drawing for my elective but it turned out that was not an option and I was laughed at for signing up. I was called into the office and was told that the class was only for the boys and was forced to take homemaking instead. I was so embarrassed. But, a few years later in my sister’s grade, the first girl was allowed to take mechanical drawing.

“I thought I was wrong to want to do

something only boys were supposed to do.”

In high school I worked part time in the US Bakery. All the women were required to wear caps similar to the ones nurses were required to wear, but the men were not held to that same standard. As I recall, that requirement was removed in 1961, right around the time I was graduating from high school.

Katie: How did you decide to apply for the position at the transportation agency and what was the interview process like for you?

Marlene: I was working in the hospital when I applied for the position as a Clerk Typist II. I took a test to qualify and once I passed I had the opportunity to interview for the position. I was looking for a job that could support my family and lead into a career and this position was of interest to me. I clearly remember the interview process down to what I wore. I was focused on looking professional by wearing my long pleated skirt that just covered my knees and putting my best foot forward because I really wanted the position.

The interview was conducted nothing like how interviews are conducted today. There were no guidelines or rules for the questions being asked. I was interviewed by a man that would later become my boss and he asked personal questions like these: Are you married? Do you have kids? What is your age? Who will watch your kids while you are working? Do you have decent transportation to get to work? None of these questions can legally be asked now but at the time it was the standard.

I got the job, which would be the first of many for me at the company. A few years later I was having a conversation with my boss when he said the following, “you know, you were hired under false pretenses.” I didn’t understand what he was saying because I passed the test and went through the interview process. He followed up by saying “you never wore that white skirt that you interviewed in again.” I’m unsure if he was just kidding, but later learned there was a bit of truth to his comment. I was completely taken by surprise at how inappropriate this comment was and responded with “you don’t pay me enough to have it cleaned” and then I walked away.

Katie: Wow. That story is almost unbelievable. Tell me more about your experiences with your male colleagues. What was it like working in a male dominated industry? What did you encounter being one of the only female employees within the organization?

Marlene: I worked in engineering field and had a position that was beginning to be deemed appropriate for women so I had an easier time fitting in than some of my other female colleagues. One of my female colleagues worked in the maintenance department and she told me a story about the men urinating on the hot truck muffler to create a horrible stench to keep her away from the group.

Nothing like that happened in my department. There were plenty of times where the men would slap and pinch the behinds of women and that unfortunately became the norm. Many of us weren't aware that the way we were being treated was wrong and considered harassment. There were also a lot of dirty jokes told and there were nude female pictures and piles of porn all throughout the office. There was a point later on in my career where a young, female engineer had her fill and was part of a group that was able to get all the pictures and stacks of porn removed from the office.

“Overall, after the initial fear of a women working their

space, they got used to me and I was accepted as one of

the crew…for the most part.”

I also remember reading an old memo from my company that states when driving to a meeting; women should sit in the back seat and men in the front seats. It also said that women should not be smiling while riding in cars or when out in the field. There were so many "do not’s” written for the women within the organization.

Katie: 32 years is a long time in one company. How did the promotion process work in your organization?

Marlene: My first job was a Clerk Typist II and I stayed in this position for a few years.

I worked in an office and stared out the window periodically to watch the men working in the field building a bridge. I wondered how they knew where to start. The women in my office were knitters. We were required to take an hour for lunch. They suggested I find something to do since I didn’t have any desire to knit. I chose to enroll in an evening class to learn Algebra, however I had to drop the class because of family demands and also there wasn’t anyone that could help answer any of my questions.

Later on, when I got promoted and had to work in the city, I knew I wanted to work in construction. I had to start taking Algebra again in order to become qualified to take the Jr. Engineering Technician exam, so I did this.

A couple of years later, the Equal Rights Amendment (ERA) and Affirmative Action Laws were put into effect. While these laws were a step in the right direction for women, they also posed a challenge. At the time, I was on the panel for interviewing candidates. I noticed that so many people eligible for the position didn’t really meet the minimum requirements for an entry level engineering position as required by the exam. They were eligible because they were allowed to transfer from the equal pay position they were in. Their lack of math and report writing made it difficult to work with some of these people.

I had a variety of positions at the company over my 32 years of employment. For me, I received promotions based on passing the required written and oral exams. I was not filling a mandated ERA position; I worked hard, studied and passed the necessary exams. I went to work to do a job and when I was there I did just that. The following list includes the positions I held over my career. I was fortunate to have some very good male supervisors and co-workers to learn from and work with.

Clerk Typist II
Personnel Assistant
Junior Engineer Tech (JET)
Transportation Engineer Tech
Assistant Transportation Engineer
Transportation Engineer C
Material & Research Engineering Associate, Supervisor
Material & Research Engineering Associate, Specialist

Katie: Did the women band together within your organization?

Marlene: In the early 1980’s I joined the Women’s Advisory Committee in my organization. There were few women within my company and we did try to support one another. I remember that one of the members of the committee once told me “women won’t help each other, because secretly women don’t want to see you get ahead.”

A woman led the meetings for everyone in our department within our district. At one point during a meeting, one of the men made a crude comment and her response was that she or any woman should be able to walk down the street or stand in that room naked and it wouldn't give anyone the right to put a hand on her. All of us, men and women were taught how to respond to sexual harassment and we learned what was not acceptable treatment. It was the beginning of zero tolerance.

Katie: Was there a time that experienced gender inequality first hand within your organization?

Marlene: I spent a lot of my first paycheck in the Construction Department on shoes to wear in the field. My boss said they weren't good enough because they didn't give me ankle protection. So, I went into debt by purchasing a pair of Small Frye cowboy boots. Well, the boss didn't like them because he said they didn't have a "field engineering" heel. At the time, there weren't any memos or requirements for shoes or boots. So, I refused to buy more boots/shoes, especially since some of the guys were wearing tennis shoes.

The boss bought me a pair of sheepskin slippers and told me if I was going to wear inappropriate shoes then he'd give me slippers! He also wrote a letter to his boss, a Senior Engineer, complaining about my boots. The Senior Engineer called me in to have a meeting about my foot attire and how the company didn't want to be responsible if I was considered unsafe in the field. I had to show him my boots and then I couldn't believe my eyes, the Senior Engineer had on the exact boots as I had on! I was so shocked and so was he. There never was another mention about my boots from my boss or the Senior Engineer.

There was also a time I was working in the lab by myself in the late afternoon. A man phoned and was obviously upset. I asked him if I could help him and he said he wanted to talk to a man. I explained there were not any men in the office, but I'd be happy to have someone return the call the next day. That really pushed him out of shape. He said he wanted and needed an answer immediately. Again, I tried to tell him that I would help him if I could. He continued to yell and tell me he demanded to talk to a man because he knew the company wouldn't have a woman lock up the office. So, I gave the phone to the male janitor!

The next day I told my boss about the phone call. It was early in the morning and the same guy phoned again. I handed the phone to my boss and he calmly told the guy that I was the one working on that project and the one with the answers. He handed the phone over to me and the man became just as nice as he could be without a word about his rude behavior the prior day.

Over the course of my career things did change for women. It was tough at times but I was fortunate to have a number of good and respectful male bosses along the way and the men changed their inappropriate behavior when they had to.

Katie: Thank you, Marlene! It was a pleasure interviewing you and thank you so much for sharing your personal experiences.

Marlene: You brought back so many memories! I did experience some gender inequality during my time working at this company but most women did during the era. Overall, I did have a wonderful career and worked with many men and women who are still my very close friends.